thenewguy
New Member
Walkley Station on Line 2. Pictures taken on July 9.
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O-Train South Line 2 & Line 4
- Thread starter hoggytime
- Start date
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Well, it's official, or semi-official: The plan for efficient airport rail travel is a failure and plan B will be put into effect, at least to begin with.
The New Ways to Bus subsite has an online travel planner and schedule page. If you wade through the schedules for routes 2 and 4, you'll deduce that the operations plan using the pocket track at South Keys (I put in a copy on page one of this thread) has been quietly abandoned. This would have seen the line 4 train dropping passengers from the airport just before the line 2 passing meet, and then picking up new ones for the airport a couple of minutes later.
Instead, the new schedules show that the line 4 train will simply pull into South Keys for a three-minute turnaround about half way through the 12 minute cycle. The transit time will be seven minutes instead of the two or so that were promised, and the train will take nine minutes to slowly trundle the 2.5 miles to the airport. The two directions will meet at Uplands, with a similar three-minute turnaround at the airport.
The original operational plan was not some notion; it was built into the contract documents, but apparently having built the pocket track at considerable expense, the operator has given up and will leave it unused. No doubt if pressed on this, OC Transpo will present this as an improvement (more reliable, simpler) and fail to acknowledge that travel will now be five minutes slower. Indeed, the travel planner shows a trip to Parliament station will be much slower than the current system (see below).
While this is not quite on par with the inept expansion debacle of 2014, it appears to be another example of OC Transpo promising something and delivering much, much less while wasting millions.
The New Ways to Bus subsite has an online travel planner and schedule page. If you wade through the schedules for routes 2 and 4, you'll deduce that the operations plan using the pocket track at South Keys (I put in a copy on page one of this thread) has been quietly abandoned. This would have seen the line 4 train dropping passengers from the airport just before the line 2 passing meet, and then picking up new ones for the airport a couple of minutes later.
Instead, the new schedules show that the line 4 train will simply pull into South Keys for a three-minute turnaround about half way through the 12 minute cycle. The transit time will be seven minutes instead of the two or so that were promised, and the train will take nine minutes to slowly trundle the 2.5 miles to the airport. The two directions will meet at Uplands, with a similar three-minute turnaround at the airport.
The original operational plan was not some notion; it was built into the contract documents, but apparently having built the pocket track at considerable expense, the operator has given up and will leave it unused. No doubt if pressed on this, OC Transpo will present this as an improvement (more reliable, simpler) and fail to acknowledge that travel will now be five minutes slower. Indeed, the travel planner shows a trip to Parliament station will be much slower than the current system (see below).
While this is not quite on par with the inept expansion debacle of 2014, it appears to be another example of OC Transpo promising something and delivering much, much less while wasting millions.
zzptichka
New Member
Those incompetent idiots who came up with that design screwed it up after all. Sigh.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I watched the presentation and Q&A sessions with council and media. They did a thorough job of explaining the testing process, which is just just getting rolling. More or less, it’s an eight to ten week process that, more or less, got started 08 July. Theoretically, then service could start at Labour Day, but I doubt that it will. A few months ago the GM was still suggesting it could start at the end of June. Obviously nothing has gone as well as she hoped. This time, to avoid the pressure that led to line 1 having a bumpy launch, reliability is the only criterion. There are no dates or deadlines on offer, but they say are clear it will be this year. I personally think RA now doesn’t care when it opens, and won’t offer any further guesses because she doesn’t like being proved wrong.
Reliability of switches seems to be the biggest issue to be resolved. I think this may be the main reason they have given up on the original airport transfer scheme, as it eliminates a couple of hundreds of moves through switches every day. In response to a question, Michael Morgan, Director of Rail Construction briefly and partially explained the change to the Airport operation. He confirmed the original scheme using the pocket track, then said that Operations recommended at revised plan where the train moved directly to the Southbound platform position. This he referred to as a huge savings in terms of improved and ensured reliability, and a “great find” and “absolutely a fantastic outcome.” He clarified when asked that it would not result in a shorter trip, just a more reliable one.
What Morgan did not mention is that travel times will increase by about 6.5 minutes for everyone transferring between lines 2 and 4, or that about 300 metres of track, three switches and the embankment under them, which were designed, bought, built, tested, and paid for ($300,000 at a guess??) will now sit unused. It’s clear that “every change is a huge improvement” speak is alive and well at City Hall, even with Watson gone. As with the opening date, OC Transpo is not concerned about efficient travel times for users; it’s OK that travel to the core will take 20 minutes longer than now, because it will be a reliable 20 minutes.
The media seemed mostly concerned with asking again and again for dates even after it was clear that none would be forthcoming. CBC was made aware of the airport issue but only cares about dates, which I suppose does reflect public opinion, given the project is more than 100% over schedule and its managers still won’t guess when it might open.
Reliability of switches seems to be the biggest issue to be resolved. I think this may be the main reason they have given up on the original airport transfer scheme, as it eliminates a couple of hundreds of moves through switches every day. In response to a question, Michael Morgan, Director of Rail Construction briefly and partially explained the change to the Airport operation. He confirmed the original scheme using the pocket track, then said that Operations recommended at revised plan where the train moved directly to the Southbound platform position. This he referred to as a huge savings in terms of improved and ensured reliability, and a “great find” and “absolutely a fantastic outcome.” He clarified when asked that it would not result in a shorter trip, just a more reliable one.
What Morgan did not mention is that travel times will increase by about 6.5 minutes for everyone transferring between lines 2 and 4, or that about 300 metres of track, three switches and the embankment under them, which were designed, bought, built, tested, and paid for ($300,000 at a guess??) will now sit unused. It’s clear that “every change is a huge improvement” speak is alive and well at City Hall, even with Watson gone. As with the opening date, OC Transpo is not concerned about efficient travel times for users; it’s OK that travel to the core will take 20 minutes longer than now, because it will be a reliable 20 minutes.
The media seemed mostly concerned with asking again and again for dates even after it was clear that none would be forthcoming. CBC was made aware of the airport issue but only cares about dates, which I suppose does reflect public opinion, given the project is more than 100% over schedule and its managers still won’t guess when it might open.
We're getting closer. Fairly safe to say it will open this year.
originalmuffins
Active Member
This is actually awful. Why wouldn't they just keep Line 4 trains running all the way? Why just stop at South Keys? Keep it running every 15 minutes and then you'll have Line 2 and 4 at South keys running every 7.5 minutes. They should have double tracked this from the get go...
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
It's logistically impossible. The size and location of the twin track sections allow for no more than 1 train every 12 minutes. 7.5 minutes would require double tracking the sections where Dow's Lake, Walkley, and Mooney's Bay are.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Why doesn't someone send this to their city councillor and ask for explanation why our several hundred million dollar investment has produced this bad result?
lrt's friend
Active Member
I am starting to question a 2024 opening. They have been unable to get operations of Line 2 and 4 perfected. Again today, there continue to be problems. Even without Airport trains running today, north and south bound trains are not lining up properly at South Keys. Northbound trains arrive at South Keys while southbound are arriving at Greenboro. By the time the southbound train reaches double tracks, the north bound train has been delayed by a couple of minutes beyond normal wait times. Even if we accept this kind of delay, they could not consistently maintain the 12 minute schedule.
The question is whether they would attempt a winter launch.
lrt's friend
Active Member
With proposed bus schedules revealing very few departures after 10 p.m. south of South Keys, why would we send a train south of South Keys after 10 p.m. sometimes with no connecting buses? It seems to me, that it would be more efficient to send those very few buses to South Keys (as today) rather than send every train to Limebank. We would be better off just to short-turn trains at South Keys.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Has it occurred to anybody, that our civic politicians failed to ask the most important question before spending billions on recent rapid transit projects. Does it actually get our customers to their destinations faster? If not, why are we spending this money?
There was a lot of controversy regarding UPX in Toronto, regarding the initial fare plan, however, it got customers to their downtown destination much faster. Think about it. 25 minutes all the way from Pearson, and we get 52 minutes from an airport much closer to downtown. Whose stupid idea was this?
There was a lot of controversy regarding UPX in Toronto, regarding the initial fare plan, however, it got customers to their downtown destination much faster. Think about it. 25 minutes all the way from Pearson, and we get 52 minutes from an airport much closer to downtown. Whose stupid idea was this?
Would be pretty hilarious if Line 1 East opened first. Slow and steady wins the race when Line 2 was supposed to open 2 years before.
Ottawa had an enviable situation with an airport this close to Downtown and a rail line passing right by it. It would have been easy and relatively cheap to have a one trip ride, but the City cheeped out, preferring to stretch the train as far south as possible, serving farm fields and bush instead of providing better service to riders. Focus should have been airport to Downtown with proper double tracks (and maybe electrifications) before adding more kilometers to an already underbuilt transit line.
lrt's friend
Active Member
The problem is that there is 30,000 + living south of the airport and growing fast and 100,000 across the river in Barrhaven. The lack of roads as an alternative is just unsustainable without good transit either. I laughed the other night with the plan of a 35 storey tower in Barrhaven and showing a Route 99 bus, when frequency on that route is slated to be reduced soon. Now people should understand why I have been lamenting the failed 2006 rail project that would have given a one or two seat ride to all of Findlay Creek, Riverside South and Barrhaven to downtown. What we are building today is garbage and they continue to struggle to perfect it. Remember 2016, the last Line 2 upgrade, and how they struggled with that as well, and the failure to reach objectives. Will we fail again to reach objectives?
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
The city said they had facts and figures to back up the choice they made, indicating that ridership could be up to 10 times higher to Riverside South than the airport, at least at certain times. Maybe this was true when the planning was done, but there are a lot of questions now that commuting has collapsed. Still, the planning was done on a longer term horizon, and we know that Barrhaven and Riverside are both growing out and now even up.
A couple of things on the management of lines 2 and 4:
Transfer waits may be up to 29 minutes, on top of train trips that in many cases will be slower (if more reliable) than current bus routings. All of the sample trips I tried were slower than at present by at least 10 minutes, with a transfer in the middle of nowhere, instead of the South Keys commercial area. To be fair, outbound commuters have 30 minute headways now, and managing these can be a challenge, but trying to coordinate a 30-minute service with 15 minutes is easier than with 12.
The trains and parking lots might attract some park and ride traffic but I don't think transit-only traffic is going to increase at all when they switch lines 2 and 4 on, and within 6 months they will be thinking about ways to cut back from 12 minutes / 18 hours per day. Carleton students will be getting a nice shuttle back, and it will be good for the new hospital when that opens up. But everything south of South Keys is looking like the Great Leap Forward, with very expensive and slower service in the south part of the city. I think the 2005 LRT plan would have served that area better, or even BRT.
A couple of things on the management of lines 2 and 4:
- One early concept for service was to have trains go direct to the airport at some times, notably weekends and perhaps evenings, with a shuttle to Limebank. Could they revisit that? Shorter line 4 platforms are a complication.
- How long till they start contemplating reduced service on weekends and late evenings? I believe you could run a twenty-minute service with four vehicles on Line 2. Or with five of the Alstom vehicles on the weekends between Bayview and the airport, and some other arrangement to the south.
- I anticipate pictures of the big Stadler vehicles running through the greenbelt at one to two percent of capacity through much of the evening, mid-day, and weekend. How long till OC Transpo starts looking at saving diesel by going back to buses south of South Keys after say 8 pm and Sunday mornings? This is more or less what LRT's Friend suggested.
- They absolutely have to find a way to coordinate buses and trains at Leitrim and Limebank, or they are going to have a customer service and publicity nightmare. However, there is no sign they are doing this.
Transfer waits may be up to 29 minutes, on top of train trips that in many cases will be slower (if more reliable) than current bus routings. All of the sample trips I tried were slower than at present by at least 10 minutes, with a transfer in the middle of nowhere, instead of the South Keys commercial area. To be fair, outbound commuters have 30 minute headways now, and managing these can be a challenge, but trying to coordinate a 30-minute service with 15 minutes is easier than with 12.
The trains and parking lots might attract some park and ride traffic but I don't think transit-only traffic is going to increase at all when they switch lines 2 and 4 on, and within 6 months they will be thinking about ways to cut back from 12 minutes / 18 hours per day. Carleton students will be getting a nice shuttle back, and it will be good for the new hospital when that opens up. But everything south of South Keys is looking like the Great Leap Forward, with very expensive and slower service in the south part of the city. I think the 2005 LRT plan would have served that area better, or even BRT.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Won't we get a potential rebellion from Carleton students if we run trains every 20 minutes in certain hours, the service level going back to the 2001 when the line first opened? Can you imagine spending hundreds of millions for this? In any event, is that even practical given the location of passing tracks. Surely, they can go to 15 minute frequency that was provided prior to the 2016 upgrade, but even that is iffy, with the passing track at South Keys instead of Greenboro. We have potentially created a real mess, with so little flexibility based on single track operations, something I have spoken about time and again since the current plan was first tabled some time before 2019. I had even spoken about it at a public meeting with the retort, that the new single track plan with Flirts would offer sufficient capacity for 25 years. They were confident that the plan would logistically work, something that is starting to look at least somewhat of an issue.
The only reason why I supported LRT over BRT in 2005/2006 was the presence of an existing rail line and the already demonstrated success of the original O-Train at that time plus the presence of sensitive wetland where the rail line runs east of the airport. In retrospect, and with the 2006 LRT cancellation, extension of the southeast Transitway to Barrhaven, would have been both cheaper and more effective than what we have built, overblown stations and excessively long trains for the potential demand.
The only reason why I supported LRT over BRT in 2005/2006 was the presence of an existing rail line and the already demonstrated success of the original O-Train at that time plus the presence of sensitive wetland where the rail line runs east of the airport. In retrospect, and with the 2006 LRT cancellation, extension of the southeast Transitway to Barrhaven, would have been both cheaper and more effective than what we have built, overblown stations and excessively long trains for the potential demand.
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