Ottawa Confederation Line LRT (City of Ottawa, U/C)

[EnviroTO]

That same thing happens on subways. Subways at rush hour get slightly delayed over the line and by the time you get to downtown or to the terminus stations you are stopping and starting in tunnels. The only reason subways aren't end to end by the end of the line on many occasions is that minimum separation requirements due to signalling blocks don't allow it. If streetcar drivers weren't allowed to be within one stop light of the streetcar in front of them the situation would be the same.

 

[kEiThZ]

That same thing happens on subways.

And that's exactly why ridiculous pictures should not be taken as blanket evidence. Someone could easily take a picture of Yonge/Bloor at rush hour on a day with a stoppage on Yonge and show how "bad" Toronto's subway system is.

 

[kEiThZ]

The straw man is the stupid claim buses can just pass any obstruction, and somehow this a great advantage. Fact is, BRT can suffer from blockages, and delays just like any transport system. Pictures, and observation prove it.

And I never claimed that BRT was absolutely immune to issues. I was responding to your ridiculous claims that buses can't go around an obstacle.

A bus stopped at a station is not a blockage!(unless it is stalled, of course. Considering drivers pull up practically to the rear bumper, it can be a problem.) If there is a blockage somewhere in the transitway when the road is 2 lanes, a bus is NOT going to simply bypass the blockage, because that is a potential for a collision. And there are BRT systems where passing lanes do not even exist, on the assumption buses can just simply use the opposite lane. Guess what occured? Crashes. Fact it, the claim is BS, unless the entire BRT is built with passing lanes. I have yet to see a BRT in North America invest that sort of money. And blockages occur at intersections too. Point is, BRT is prone to blockages,and breakdowns just like any other transit system. It happens.

I am starting to doubt that you've ever ridden a bus in Ottawa. How many times during rush hour have you seen express buses pass two or even three buses using the passing lane at stations? And have you ever seen them do work on the Transitway? I have. I've seen them cut the Transitway down to one lane (for example during the stimulus fueled construction between Train and St. Laurent) and manage opposing traffic with no issues during rush hour. Slight slow down as the signal man runs a pack of buses through but thats it. Buses can cross the yellow line! Gasp. Heck, I have seen buses get off the Transitway and skip around a station during one major blockage. It's amazing what you can do when your infrastructure (roads) is the same as what everybody else (cars) use. This crap about buses not being able to bypass a blockage is simply that, crap. It's blatantly untrue. If you lived in Ottawa, as you claim, and used transit regularly than you'd know this. Especially if you've used it in the last few months while they've been doing tons of construction. They've been down to one lane outside the core and taking buses off the transitway for a stop quite often.

You'd also be aware if you used OC Transpo that the bottlenecks are largely in the core...and they have nothing to do with buses being able to go around obstacles. They have everything to do with hundreds of buses running through the core every rush hour trying to stop at the same stops. The only real problems are in the core....and that takes LRT to solve.

BTW, I'd love to see your links on BRT systems that didn't employ passing lanes. Do you have statistics to show that there was a significant increase in collisions? And would this increase be all that different from say auto traffic performing the same maneuver? As for having passing lanes throughout. Not needed. Ottawa shows that. Passing lanes at stations are sufficient. What's the probability that a bus will die in between two stops with passing lanes anyway? And if it does happen, it's a lot easier to tow a bus out of the way than the same situation on LRT.

I remember( or some other subway advocate) touting the development potential of extending the Spadina Line to a field. Hypocritical, much? Riverside South was slated for development, and could have developed around the line.

Except that was not supposed the goal of any sort of transit improvement. Priority one was always supposed to be easing congestion in the core. It simply snowballed under the previous mayor as they tried harder and harder to justify the previous plan. That Riverside South excuse was the last one they tried. People in Ottawa (mainly the 80% of riders who commute East-West) didn't buy it. Nothing proposed for Riverside South would ever come remotely close to generating the amount of ridership that already exists from Orleans and Kanata. But not addressing the bus congestion could do serious damage to attracting ridership from those areas.

I do not need to count anything. much of the grade-seperated transitway is being converted to LRT, Sorry, but I do not consider curb-lanes to be "BRT".

In other word facts don't matter and when it's convenient I'll make up my own definitions. As gweed said 20% of the Transitway is being converted. And they are demanding significant intensification to take it outside the greenbelt. I don't think we'll see more than 50% of the Transitway converted over in our lifetimes, if that.

As for curbside bus lanes not being BRT...fair enough, please let me know how trams in dedicated lanes on the street should be considered LRT while buses in dedicated lanes are not considered BRT.

That's funny, I don't seem to recall saying that.

Apologies. May have got you mixed up with somebody else. Excuse the friendly fire.

 

[GTS]

Adam Giambrone posted on Facebook:

'Adam Giambrone Federal Transport Minister John Baird announced today - $600 million in funding for Ottawa’s LRT plan, including a 3.2 km downtown tunnel. This is in addition to the $600 million from the Province. More details @ www.ottawalightrail.ca'

Congrats to Ottawa and the Feds I hope more federal announcements are like this around the country.

 

[nfitz]

'Adam Giambrone Federal Transport Minister John Baird announced today - $600 million in funding for Ottawa’s LRT plan, including a 3.2 km downtown tunnel. This is in addition to the $600 million from the Province. More details @ www.ottawalightrail.ca'

Wow, $600-million for a city of 820,000. So Toronto should get $1.8-billion for our 2.5 million people. Let's see we did have $700 million for the Spadina subway back in 2007 ... though that's only about 2/3 in Toronto. So let's count that as $470 million. And we go $333 million for the Sheppard East LRT. So about $800-million total for Toronto for transit.

Where's the other $1-billion?

 

[rbt]

Wow, $600-million for a city of 820,000. So Toronto should get $1.8-billion for our 2.5 million people. Let's see we did have $700 million for the Spadina subway back in 2007 ... though that's only about 2/3 in Toronto. So let's count that as $470 million. And we go $333 million for the Sheppard East LRT. So about $800-million total for Toronto for transit.

The primary users of the Ottawa system will be Federal employees. It makes a lot of sense for more direct involvement.

Aside from which, you can find the other $1B in various Toronto waterfront activities, including a sizable chunk in Union station.

 

[nfitz]

The primary users of the Ottawa system will be Federal employees. It makes a lot of sense for more direct involvement.

Ah ... that's an interesting point.

Aside from which, you can find the other $1B in various Toronto waterfront activities, including a sizable chunk in Union station.

The next biggest project listed for Toronto is $133 million for Union Station. Though I was thinking of Transit. After that the next biggest is $20-million for Maple Leaf Garderns. I'm ignoring the $250 million listed for GO Transit ... wasn't that a 2002 contribution from the Chretien government? Seems a bit much to be listing that! But even with that, the sum is only $1.6 billion.

The sum for Ottawa is $850 million. That's about $1,000 per person. If we look at it that way, we are about $900-million short. $1.15 if you ignore funding from the government before last. $1.3 billion if you remember that 1/3 of the Spadina subway isn't in Toronto.

If you ignore the big transportation projects (Ottawa LRT, Spadina Subway, GO, Union, Sheppard) where Toronto seems to get the shaft, it's interesting to note that both cities add up to about $250 million (well $275 million for Toronto). Clearly on a per capita basis, Toronto has been screwed.

And then if you remember that the Sheppard East LRT and the Spadina subway extension are all in North York/Scarborough ... then the majority of Torontonians who live south of the 401 have been ultra screwed. And the two remaning big projects (Union Station and GO) are mostly about providing transportation for those living in 905.

 

[gweed123]

Wow, $600-million for a city of 820,000. So Toronto should get $1.8-billion for our 2.5 million people. Let's see we did have $700 million for the Spadina subway back in 2007 ... though that's only about 2/3 in Toronto. So let's count that as $470 million. And we go $333 million for the Sheppard East LRT. So about $800-million total for Toronto for transit.

Where's the other $1-billion?

Provincial Funding for Transit City: $7.18 billion
Provincial Funding for DOTT: $0.6 billion

Federal Funding for Transit City: $333 million
Federal Funding for DOTT: $0.6 billion

Total for Transit City: $7.513 billion
Total for DOTT: $1.2 billion

Total for Transit City (Prov) ÷ population of Toronto: (2,500,000): $2872.00/person
Total for DOTT (Prov) ÷ population of Ottawa (812,000): $738.92/person

Total for Transit City (Fed + Prov) ÷ population of Toronto (2,500,000): $3005.20/person
Total for DOTT (Fed + Prov) ÷ population of Ottawa (812,000): $1477.83/person

In otherwords, Toronto is getting twice as much Federal + Provincial funding per person than Ottawa is. The Provincial funding is 4:1 ratio in favour of Toronto. If anything, it's Ottawa that's getting shafted, not Toronto (relatively of course, ideally they should both be getting more). I found it pretty funny that you were complaining that Ottawa was getting $267 million more in Federal funding, while at the same time Ottawa is getting $6,313,000 less in Provincial funding than Toronto is. Pretty "Toronto is the centre of the universe and thus should get everything" view if you ask me...

 

[nfitz]

In otherwords, Toronto is getting twice as much Federal + Provincial funding per person than Ottawa is.

It was the feds I was discussing. Sure, Ontario should fund Ottawa more ... but I'm curious ... what Ottawa transportation projects have the provincial government allowed to go unfunded? Everytime there is a request, they seem to jump and and try and pay some of it ... and it doesn't seem to get built.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Considering this is the largest public transit project since the original transitway....so in the past 25 years....I hardly see this as Ottawa getting more than Toronto. And though there will be extensions to LRT over time, there is unlikely to be another project on this scale in Ottawa for another 20 years or so (the only exception being a Ottawa-Gatineau loop but that is more related to the city as the nations capital and an NCC project). Toronto is not what I would call hard done by.

Glad this announcement has finally come and gives this project a momentum that will be pretty hard to make it stop now. I can't wait.

 

[gweed123]

It was the feds I was discussing. Sure, Ontario should fund Ottawa more ... but I'm curious ... what Ottawa transportation projects have the provincial government allowed to go unfunded?

My point is that you're bringing up a relatively small gap in federal funding vs a mountainous gap in Provincial funding.

Your point about the transportation projects going unfunded is valid. However, the last major transit project in Ottawa was the Transitway itself. Since in opened in 1983, the vast majority of the projects in Ottawa have been relatively minor extensions or upgrades to the network (think of a distance scale of doing a Warden to Kennedy subway extension, only with BRT, so a fraction of the cost). The extension from Baseline to Fallowfield is the biggest project I can think of in the past 10-15 years, and that was only adding in curbside lanes from Algonquin to Hunt Club about 10 years ago, and adding a new section of dedicated ROW from Hunt Club to Fallowfield (through the Greenbelt, so literally through a corn field) about 2 years ago.

Even the original O-Train pilot project was under $50 million, and most of that was to buy the vehicles.

Ottawa has not done any Sheppard Subway, Spadina Subway, or streetcar ROW-esque big ticket projects for over 25 years, so when it comes time for the Feds and the Province to poney up the dough, you bet your ass they better.

Everytime there is a request, they seem to jump and and try and pay some of it ... and it doesn't seem to get built.

You're referring to a single, deeply flawed project. Like I've said before, that project was not worth the paper the draft plans were printed on. Just because the City changed their mind and got some sense is no reason to deny funding this time around, especially when the City swallowed the entire cancellation fee hit by itself, and didn't ask for Prov or Fed money to help pay off that fee.

 

[nfitz]

You're referring to a single, deeply flawed project.

No, I was referring to transit in Ottawa in general. I'm just unaware of Ottawa transit projects sitting unfunded for any period of time. Compare that to the years that various Toronto subways were unfunded ... Eglinton West, much of Sheppard, Spadina extension (which has been on the books for decades). Etobicoke RT, GO ALRT (which had it's funding cancelled after it was approved), ... up to the present day where the DRL, Don Mills LRT, and other projects remain unfunded ... or pulled back.

It's the bizarre Ottawa politics. Is O'Brian running again? Is Watson the front-runner - he seems to be expressing doubts about the project?

What do you think? Should Ottawa cancel the LRT and push for subway? Or should they forget the tunnel, close off one of those 2 streets, and just run it on the surface.

 

[gweed123]

No, I was referring to transit in Ottawa in general. I'm just unaware of Ottawa transit projects sitting unfunded for any period of time. Compare that to the years that various Toronto subways were unfunded ... Eglinton West, much of Sheppard, Spadina extension (which has been on the books for decades). Etobicoke RT, GO ALRT (which had it's funding cancelled after it was approved), ... up to the present day where the DRL, Don Mills LRT, and other projects remain unfunded ... or pulled back.

I don't think that any one of those projects had a smaller pricetag than even the Transitway. Ottawa has a very incremental approach to transit expansion. Generally, Ottawa sticks to the plan it set out. The Transitway projects that are being built now (the extension from Pinecrest to Bayshore along the side of the 417 comes to mind) have been in the plans since the original Transitway plan, or shortly thereafter. By and large, Ottawa doesn't scrap TMPs every 10 years and start from scratch. If something that hasn't been built yet was in the previous TMP, chances are it, or a similar version of it, will be in the new TMP. The notable exception is the LRT projects. Transitway expansion however has been very phased and incremental. The Barrhaven Town Centre extension has been on the books for the past 10 years, gone through at least 2 versions of the TMP, and is just being built now.

It's the bizarre Ottawa politics. Is O'Brian running again? Is Watson the front-runner - he seems to be expressing doubts about the project?

No more bizzare than Toronto politics. And I do not believe he is running again, and yes, Watson is the front-runner (former Mayor of the old City of Ottawa). The other few people running are current city council members.

What do you think? Should Ottawa cancel the LRT and push for subway? Or should they forget the tunnel, close off one of those 2 streets, and just run it on the surface.

I think the LRT that Ottawa is planning right now is perfect for its needs. It will not be pushing the upper thresholds of grade-separated LRT capacity for a long time now, and if they come even close, there are many other options. In fact, in the long-term part of the TMP, they have dedicated bus lanes running along Baseline-Heron (the equivalent of Eglinton, only with less density). That would connect the Southwest and South portions of the Transitway pretty effectively, and would create a viable crosstown route that would avoid downtown.

And to the 2nd part of that, running at-grade, even in a transit mall (which the businesses along Albert and/or Slater have already said they strongly oppose, that was considered as an option in the 1st version of the LRT plan), would be a dumb idea. It's underkill, and won't solve anything.

 

[unimaginative2]

This is fantastic news for an amazing project. I'm really looking forward to this getting started. As a former Albert Street resident, I'm thrilled that the endless bus parade will finally be replaced with something much faster and more reliable.

 

[kEiThZ]

The primary users of the Ottawa system will be Federal employees. It makes a lot of sense for more direct involvement.

The federal government (as the largest employer) also sets strict standards for the amount of parking available for its employees. Ottawa has an abnormally low amount of parking per capita in the core, for a major city in Canada. It'd be unfair to federal civil servants to not give them parking and then force them to take extraordinarily commutes because the current BRT is over capacity. And it's unfair for other residents that the resulting bus crowding and congestion in the core is a direct result of the policies of the feds.