Ottawa Confederation Line LRT (City of Ottawa, U/C)

[Darwinkgo]

Remember the car length for Ottawa needs to include cuplers which most of the data sheets don't include. They won't be off the shelf anyways - Ottawa wants pretty non-standard capabilities as of right now including automatic train control capability (which isn't easy to add to trains as we can see by the T1s) and they want to be able to operate as 6 car trains (makes sense why have planned obsolescence, just no one builds such a system as of today). I am sure someone can design an automated metro rolling stock that looks and feels like low floor LRT for them, but they will pay a premium for sure.

 

[CDL.TO]

I would direct you to Bombardier Flexity 2 website where you can download the PDF for more information. Click on this link, click on references.

Uh-huh. And I will direct you to this adorable photo of a kitten.

 

[reaperexpress]

Remember the car length for Ottawa needs to include cuplers which most of the data sheets don't include. They won't be off the shelf anyways - Ottawa wants pretty non-standard capabilities as of right now including automatic train control capability (which isn't easy to add to trains as we can see by the T1s) and they want to be able to operate as 6 car trains (makes sense why have planned obsolescence, just no one builds such a system as of today). I am sure someone can design an automated metro rolling stock that looks and feels like low floor LRT for them, but they will pay a premium for sure.

The TTC plans to operate the Transit City Flexities using ATC on the Eglinton line. It would be interesting to know whether we paid a premium for that, or if the cars are even capable of it.

 

[rbt]

The TTC plans to operate the Transit City Flexities using ATC on the Eglinton line. It would be interesting to know whether we paid a premium for that, or if the cars are even capable of it.

It's the same standard signal kit we ordered for Toronto Rockets.

Due to being standard and having a control center using it (by that time), it's cheaper than other older out-of-cab signalling systems.

Yes, there would be a premium for installing it but pretty insignificant over a 30 year period. A single additional load per day would more than pay for it.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Making something capable is just a matter of money. At the volumes the EA predicts for the central trunk in Ottawa it makes sense, for Eglinton it is like management half expects anything without automated signaling to bunch like the Spadina Streetcar!

As for the poster above, I would have more faith if you hadn't said both it would cost more and cost less in your post!

 

[CapitalSeven]

There's been a lot of recent chatter in Ottawa about city council wanting to accelerate the plan to have the line running by 2017. Also about revising some of the station plans, including shifting Train north a bit and moving Campus to the surface, thereby shortening the tunnel considerably. Someone at SSP linked a presentation on some of these issues.

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/csedc/2011/03-01/March%20Update%20FINAL%20ENG.ppt

No detail on Campus, but there are some fuzzy illustrations of other stations. Bayview is shown as having the E-W line on the current bus alignement, with the branch to the south using platforms on either side of that (grade profile not at all clear). The real surprise was that they seem to be proposing that Hurdman, planned to be on a berm, would be in a fairly shallow cut instead, with the station itself covered but some open cut running sections. This would make the area more useable for either parkland or development, and importantly might make an eventual southeast branch on the transitway more feasible. I imagine there are some soil remediation issues here, though.

 

[gweed123]

There's been a lot of recent chatter in Ottawa about city council wanting to accelerate the plan to have the line running by 2017. Also about revising some of the station plans, including shifting Train north a bit and moving Campus to the surface, thereby shortening the tunnel considerably. Someone at SSP linked a presentation on some of these issues.

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/csedc/2011/03-01/March%20Update%20FINAL%20ENG.ppt

No detail on Campus, but there are some fuzzy illustrations of other stations. Bayview is shown as having the E-W line on the current bus alignement, with the branch to the south using platforms on either side of that (grade profile not at all clear). The real surprise was that they seem to be proposing that Hurdman, planned to be on a berm, would be in a fairly shallow cut instead, with the station itself covered but some open cut running sections. This would make the area more useable for either parkland or development, and importantly might make an eventual southeast branch on the transitway more feasible. I imagine there are some soil remediation issues here, though.

I've been paying attention to this chatter as well. I'm not too sure what to make of it to be honest. Accelerating the plan is a good idea, but unfortunately a lot of the usual advocates against the plan are using this as another occasion to soapbox against it (Ken Gray of the Ottawa Citizen for example). There has always been a push by people who know nothing about transit to revert back to the original plan of running on the surface through downtown. A plan that in my mind is beyond absurd.

 

[bobert_d]

I'd be ok with a secondary surface LRT through downtown, like the Carling route, but the prinary trunk line pretty much has to be underground for this to work.

 

[gweed123]

I'd be ok with a secondary surface LRT through downtown, like the Carling route, but the prinary trunk line pretty much has to be underground for this to work.

Hmm, interesting idea. I'd imagine that would be some sort of a N-S route though. Having 2 E-W routes through such a small downtown would be somewhat of a waste.

I always thought as a long-term solution they should eventually reroute the N-S LRT from Carleton, under the canal to Bank St, and then up Bank St through downtown, creating a T-station at either Downtown East or West. This would eliminate the need to have N-S passengers interline with E-W passengers east of Bayview heading into downtown. But that would only be needed if a) Bank St becomes as dense as Yonge St, or b) the E-W LRT through downtown is overwhelmed. Neither of which are likely to happen anytime soon.

 

[bobert_d]

Hmm, interesting idea. I'd imagine that would be some sort of a N-S route though. Having 2 E-W routes through such a small downtown would be somewhat of a waste.

I always thought as a long-term solution they should eventually reroute the N-S LRT from Carleton, under the canal to Bank St, and then up Bank St through downtown, creating a T-station at either Downtown East or West. This would eliminate the need to have N-S passengers interline with E-W passengers east of Bayview heading into downtown. But that would only be needed if a) Bank St becomes as dense as Yonge St, or b) the E-W LRT through downtown is overwhelmed. Neither of which are likely to happen anytime soon.

Yeah, I was already thinking that the NS OTrain would be the one to do it, but I think I'd rather see the Prince of Wales bridge used to bring LRT into Gatineau instead, which would necessitate not changing that line. I think having a secondary EW line across downtown would be useful, especially if it linked up Rideau and Montreal Road as well, relieveing these roads of the mess of buses currently on them. Also, the Montreal road section in Vanier is likely to be one of the next targets for intensification, so it will certainly be better for TOD.

The big problem is I'm not sure how a workable link could be made to get from Carling to Rideau. I'd like to use Bank (going on Wellington and then across to Rideau), but getting there would likely require some major tunnelling in an incredibly NIMBY neighbourhood.

 

[gweed123]

Yeah, I was already thinking that the NS OTrain would be the one to do it, but I think I'd rather see the Prince of Wales bridge used to bring LRT into Gatineau instead, which would necessitate not changing that line.

Not necessarily. It could also be used as a separate line (in essence a shuttle across the river, similar to the Yellow line in Montreal).

I think having a secondary EW line across downtown would be useful, especially if it linked up Rideau and Montreal Road as well, relieveing these roads of the mess of buses currently on them. Also, the Montreal road section in Vanier is likely to be one of the next targets for intensification, so it will certainly be better for TOD.

I agree with that, but I don't think they necessarily have to be connected. There would be a relatively small demand for thru-traffic. It would almost be better to have Carling in the west, and Rideau/Montreal Rd in the east, both acting as feeder lines into downtown. The 'midtown crosstown' function will already be adequately supplied by the Baseline BRT, which will run from Bayshore to St. Laurent via Baseline/Heron.

And if there had to be a 2nd E-W line through downtown, I would go with Somerset.

And I think Ottawa's main focus for TOD should be Centretown, for which a Bank St LRT would help enormously.

The big problem is I'm not sure how a workable link could be made to get from Carling to Rideau. I'd like to use Bank (going on Wellington and then across to Rideau), but getting there would likely require some major tunnelling in an incredibly NIMBY neighbourhood.

If you really did want to connect them, one option would be to remove the Queen Elizabeth Driveway (the road on the north and west side of the canal). Have the LRT diverge off of Carling at Dow's Lake, run the QED route until just across from Ottawa U, and then have it cross the canal and go up King Edward to Rideau. I have to say, that would be one of the nicest LRT trips in the world.

 

[gweed123]

New articles posted in the Ottawa Citizen, saying that the preliminary designs for the stations have been released and there will be a public consultation on June 14th.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/entert...ight+rail+transit+stations/4805707/story.html

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/entert...light+rail+station+designs/4806707/story.html

Also looks like they're going with 120m platforms on opening.

 

[unimaginative2]

In addition to the awesome east-west rapid transit plan, Ottawa is also planning to double frequencies on the existing O-Train and extend service down to a park-and-ride station in Leitrim. The O-Train is a fantastically economical way to build rapid transit. I wish we could have something like this on the Stouffville line, for example. This is from Railway Gazette International:


Ottawa O-Train extension proposed

24 May 2011

CANADA: The Ottawa Transit Commission approved C$200 000 for a study into a southern O-Train extension to Leitrim Park & Ride and Riverside South at a meeting on May 18. The line would use the corridor designated for the proposed north-south LRT line that was scrapped by City of Ottawa Council in November 2006.

During the meeting, Alain Mercier, General Manager of city transit agency OC Transpo, outlined a C$59m expansion plan for the diesel O-Train service which includes the purchase of six new DMUs. The current fleet of three Bombardier Talent vehicles have been serving the 8 km, five-station line from Bayview Transitway to Greenboro since October 2001.

Mercier said new passing loops would be built to cut the current headway from 15 min to 8 min. In addition, the three existing DMUs would be refurbished.
Current ridership is around 12 000 trips/day, nearly double the target when O-Train service started as a four-year demonstration project. Mercier gave no details on how the expansion, which could be completed in three years, would be financed but he said fewer new buses would be needed.

The full report, which will be released on June 14, will be presented to the Transit Commission on June 21 and to the city council the next day.

 

[unimaginative2]

On second reading, I'm kind of unclear whether it's just going to Leitrim Road or actually off the CP ROW into Riverside South along the old North-South plan route. My assumption is that they're talking about serving Riverside South with the Leitrim park and ride station.

The sad thing is that while Ottawa has some fantastic capital projects in the pipeline, the operating funding has been suffering and they're facing some pretty savage bus service cuts.

I also hope that they're protecting the right-of-way for the eventual completion of rail to Barrhaven.

 

[gweed123]

On second reading, I'm kind of unclear whether it's just going to Leitrim Road or actually off the CP ROW into Riverside South along the old North-South plan route. My assumption is that they're talking about serving Riverside South with the Leitrim park and ride station.

My guess would be that they're staying within the CP ROW. IIRC, the LRT ROW design through Riverside south and through Barrhaven was along some pretty new urbanist stretches. It was also planned to use the new Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge to cross the Rideau River. Not exactly the kind of environment you want diesel trains running through.

The sad thing is that while Ottawa has some fantastic capital projects in the pipeline, the operating funding has been suffering and they're facing some pretty savage bus service cuts.

The capital funding has been less than spectacular as well. Toronto is getting 100% of their transit improvements paid for by the Province, Ottawa got a whopping $600 million.

And a lot of the cuts aren't as severe as people make them out to be. A lot of them are mainly route changes, as opposed to actual cuts. A lot of locations had multiple overlapping routes, so they changed the routing of one of those routes to eliminate the overlap. Some of the changes are a bit non-sensical though.

I also hope that they're protecting the right-of-way for the eventual completion of rail to Barrhaven.

It is. If you look on Google Earth, just east of Barrhaven Town Centre you can see a collector road with an uber wide median that right now is just grass. It's at 45.273074, -75.720957.

The N-S LRT is actually still part of Phase 1 of the TMP. It's 3rd in line in terms of priority projects (DOTT, West LRT extension, N-S LRT). They're trying to keep the N-S LRT plan as close to the original plan as possible, so that when funding does come through, only a minimal amount of updating will be needed in order to get it shovel-ready.